how thin can you pour epoxy resin

With a little skill and the right epoxy resin for your aquarium, you can turn your ideas into reality in no time at all and even, Read More Aquarium Safe Epoxy Learn how to use Resin for your AquariumContinue, Best Fabric Glue Complete Guide for Fabric Adhesives, Best Glue for Acrylic Plexiglass The Top Plexiglass Adhesives, Mold Release Guide The best Epoxy Release Agent, How to Apply Polyurethane Achieving the Perfect Polyurethane Finish, Best Granite Sealer Guide to the Best Granite Countertop Sealer, Aquarium Safe Epoxy Learn how to use Resin for your Aquarium, What Color Walls Go With Dark Wood Trim? Step 2: Begin Pouring the Resin. If youre having trouble getting your epoxy to hold together, try pouring it a bit thicker next time.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'salvagesecretsblog_com-large-mobile-banner-1','ezslot_8',122,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-salvagesecretsblog_com-large-mobile-banner-1-0'); This will give it enough time to cure properly and will help prevent cracking. Thinning epoxy using heat There are two options if you want to use heat to thin epoxy. One way is to use a solvent such as denatured alcohol, acetone, or xylene. Thicker epoxy coatings will not crack as easily but they may take longer to cure, especially if you have an active kitchen with a lot of moisture in the air. This is easily noticeable by any smoke you may see coming off your cured items. Epoxy is often too thick because of the way it is mixed. These are another option of very strong solvents that can be used to thin epoxy. This is also what makes them a popular choice for those looking at how to thin epoxy resin. We recommend using a 1/8 layer, allowing the bubbles to escape and resulting in a stronger bond. All of these solvents are easily available and also do a great job in lowering the viscosity. In general, epoxy can be poured as thin as 1/8 thick. This can result in pockets of air forming and causes the epoxy resin to cure incorrectly. However, thinning epoxy with heat should be done with some caution. When using acetone or paint thinner just add a maximum of 10% to the epoxy resin. Leave the middle of the mold for the clear resin pour. Using a heat source as your epoxy thinner is another way to go. To create this thickness of epoxy resin, you need to pour a minimum of 1 gallon per every 50 square feet. The Heating Method Heating is, by far, the best method for thinning epoxy resin as it doesn't actually weaken the substance in the slightest. The chemicals in denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are softer on your epoxy resins, allowing them to still break down but possibly without losing as many of their natural benefits. Knowing what resin doesn't stick to helps get the resin to do some neat things. You need only one type of resin for most projects. For smaller projects, such as a tabletop, you can typically pour epoxy that is about of an inch thick. She loves using these thin boards because:- the smooth surface means the resin will easily peel off- she can pick the board up and rotate it, using gravity to help spread the resin- plastic means they're easy to clean- they don't have any ridges or ripples meaning that she gets a perfectly flat and smooth layer of resinOnce she's poured and thinly spread the resin, she leaves it for 24 hrs to cure. If you are using a power mixer, make sure the blades are moving slowly. This period of transformation is the cure time. Use the 3-5 or 24 hour methods for pouring multiple " layers on artwork. As it cures, epoxy passes from the liquid state, through a gel state, before it reaches a solid-state (Figure 1). You can pour deep pour epoxy resin up to 2 inches deep in one go. Not only will this help ensure that your second coat of epoxy adheres properly to the original surface, but it will also allow you to create a better finish on your project. He has furthered his career by specializing in epoxy resin flooring, providing excellent service to both commercial and residential clients. Can you put epoxy on Formica countertops? For best results, use one of our other methods instead! Since heat is generated during the curing process, a reaction called exothermic heat occurs. for casting various objects or epoxy tables. The most important factor that controls how thickly poured epoxies cure is temperature: the cooler it gets, or if your room/garage isnt well ventilated (and therefore letting in cold air), then your casting time will be longer than usual because once again, chemical reactions slow down at lower temperatures! Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 5 How much acetone to add to epoxy to thin it? The thickness of the layer of epoxy resin that is poured determines how thick the final product will be. For example, some solvents will attack polyurethane resins while others will not. How thick can you pour a single layer without self-leveling? The bottom line is if you need to thin your epoxy for any reason, use the heating method and not the solvent method. Another way is to use heat. Epoxy can be poured as thin as 1/8 of an inch, but the thinner it is, the more difficult it becomes to get the epoxy to fully cover the wood. Take a big enough container and fill it with boiling water, then take the epoxy resin container and immerse it in the hot water. Epoxy is a versatile material that can be poured into a variety of shapes and thicknesses. Its used as a protective finish for wood or other materials and as an adhesive. Repeat with 2 to 3 layers, giving 24 hours' interval between each. However, there are times when you might need to pour it thinner than usual.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'salvagesecretsblog_com-banner-1','ezslot_3',118,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-salvagesecretsblog_com-banner-1-0'); The answer to this question is yes, deep pour epoxy can be poured thin. Remember, there are some methods that you can use to thin epoxy resin which may lower its viscosity, but it will also have the effect of weakening its protective characteristics. Yes, you can pour epoxy in layers. Leave it to stand in the hot water for a couple of minutes. Name: Epoxy Resin Crystal Clear Liquid Glass 2 to 4 inch Thick Pour 3 GL Resin Kit, Self Leveling, Clear Resin, Perfect for Mica Powder, Epoxy Resin Table DIY, Deep Resin Molds, River Table, Resin Dye, 2:1 Company: FGCI Amazon Product Rating: 4.7 Fakespot Reviews Grade: B Adjusted Fakespot Rating: 4.7 Analysis Performed at: 12-26-2022 Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. It is important when choosing your resin that you know its maximum pour depth so that you dont waste time and money working with resin that simply isnt going to work for the project you want it for. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. For those who are keen to experiment, here are the techniques on how to thin epoxy resin. The answer to this question really depends on the project you are working on. This method works well if you have a large area to cover and want good coverage without wasting any epoxy. Some people might advise against it altogether, but we believe that if you are careful and know what you are doing then using table top epoxy is perfectly fine. The acceptable mix is a ratio of 10:1, which means if you have 10 gallons of epoxy you need to mix it with 1 gallon of lacquer thinners or acetone. If you were using low-viscosity (LV) resin, which is thinner than standard epoxies and therefore weighs less per gallon, it would take more LV resin than standard resin plus hardener to fill the same space in your container. This post may contain affiliate links. Some people like to have their wood tables as thick as possible, so they place them on top of another piece of wood. Before pouring: 1. Make sure that all surfaces are covered with a thin layer of epoxy medium before adding more layers on topthis will help prevent air bubbles from forming while curing and help ensure smooth edges when finished (which is especially important if using colored epoxies). In extreme cases, this can even cause the epoxy to catch fire! If you go over this heating temperature, it can cause your resin to dry too quickly. If you want to know if you can pour epoxy thinner than 1/4 inch (6mm), then yes! https://www.artresin.com\"Can you cut and layer ArtResin?\"It's Video Friday and today Joanne is joined by ArtResin's newest addition, Jasmine who is sharing one of the fun techniques she's been experimenting with here at the studio . cutting shapes out a thinly poured sheets of ArtResin!First, Jasmine mixes up some tinted ArtResin and spreads it in a thin layer on a flexible plastic cutting board she picked up at the dollar store. The main side effect of layering is that you wont get as smooth a finish as if you had used one thick coat instead of two thin ones. Pour blue epoxy and then clear epoxy on the base and mix them to get different effects of depth. Attaching appliqus or even small buttons is as simple as it is safe. As a general rule of thumb, you should aim for a 1/8-inch pour when working with epoxy. The answer is it depends. The thickness you can use will depend on the type of epoxy youre using and the equipment you have available. 2. Keep the resin out of direct sunlight and away from windows so that it doesn't cure too quickly. Also, these solvents evaporate quickly and are unlikely to become trapped in your cured epoxy resin. For EcoPoxy FlowCast, our maximum recommended thickness per layer is 1.5 inches. Thinning your epoxy resin in this way will create a problem, as the warm epoxy starts to cure a lot faster than during the normal process. Can you put hot pots on epoxy countertops? Trial, Small & Medium receive bonus pointed tip caps in the kit! Although they may be a little safer than using thinners or pure acetone. 2. Epoxy thats slightly thicker will take longer to cure. Pouring from an 8 wide container would give me about 2-3 inches worth of material when I was finished pouring mine over my first coat which is about right for most tables but not enough in my opinion so make sure when measuring out how much space youll be covering before filling up each container! 1 Fresh flowers 2 Pigments and dyes 3 Glitter 4 Gold leaf 5 Pressed or artificial flowers 6 Food colors 7 Beads etc. For example, if you were making regular-strength epoxy (2:1 mix ratio), it would take one gallon of resin and one gallon of hardener to make five gallons total. You can pour table top epoxy as thin as you want. If the surface is uneven, though (for example if there are grooves), this method wont be effective because the excess will just pool around those areas instead of being spread out evenly by gravity. At the 24 hr mark, the resin is ready to peel off and ready to cut with scissors or a blade. This makes them weaker and much less durable than simply applying your epoxy direct to the area. The depth of your pour will affect the drying time, so if youre looking to speed things up, pour shallow layers. Too thin, and it will not adhere to your surface. You need to know what protects your resin art and crafting table. Can you put epoxy on Formica countertops? A standard set of Bar & Table Top Epoxy Resin covers approximately 25 square feet. Martins experience enables him to offer professional advice on how to choose the right type of project based on your needs and budget. Spread a thin layer of a well-mixed epoxy by using a squeegee first and then use a brush to finish edges. how much does it cost to make an epoxy resin table? Epoxies are typically used low viscosity liquids but their viscosity can be increased through heat application or vacuum degassing. Thinner layers will cure faster, so you can move on to the next step sooner. pour epoxy is designed to be poured thick. What You'll Need: Upstart Epoxy Deep Pour Resin Upstart Epoxy Table Top Resin Upstart Epoxy Powdered Pigments Set Wood Slab Blocks Tyvek Tape Acrylic Mold Blow Torch Denatured Alcohol Planer Preparing for Resin Pouring Let's do a little prep work before getting started pouring resin! This solvent allows you to thin your epoxy without causing too much damage to the durable properties of your epoxy. This way, as the wood contracts and cools down, the epoxy can dry and be absorbed into the fibers of the wood. However, if you are working with wood and you need to thin your epoxy using the heat method, the best way is to heat the wood and leave the epoxy resin at room temperature. Example: 32 ounces of epoxy to mix to 3.2 ounces of acetone or paint thinner. BONUS: We have a step-by-step guide on mixing resin if you want extra help. If your epoxy pour is too thick, the reaction can create too much heat, resulting in a product that does not cure properly with cracks or excessive bubbles. Too thick, and it will not cure properly. how much does it cost to make an epoxy resin table? Prepare The Moulds. This will allow the epoxy to flow much easier, especially with things like partly rotten wood, helping it to penetrate the porous surface. 4 Can You pour more than 1 inch of epoxy? How do you know when epoxy is fully cured. Here are three reasons I can think of right away. Theyll also tell you how thick they should be spread out before curing, so that the entire surface is covered evenly by the resin. Epoxy resin is a liquid polymer that cures into a solid, clear coating. Think of it as heating canned cake frosting. Martin Flood has been working in the construction industry for over 20 years as a general contractor with expertise in remodeling projects that are large or small. You can heat the resin and hardener components separately and then mix them together to create a thinned epoxy. Mix the epoxy resin with the white epoxy colour and; Pour it near the beach to create sea waves. It was designed for thin applications and naturally self-levels to about 1/8". How do you apply epoxy to laminate countertops? While most epoxies will cure in 24 to 72 hours, some take longer. Its important to read the instructions before pouring a table top epoxy and make sure that youre not exceeding its recommended thickness. Another issue with pouring too much resin at once is that it may be too thick for whatever purpose you intend for your piece (for example: using as a tabletop). If youre using resin and hardener together with an epoxy additive like Tung oil then the recommended range is between 5mm 25mm in thickness. Like making resin beads. If you are working with any type of wood or wooden surfaces, then heating this surface before applying the epoxy resin is the best way to go. Thinning your epoxy could result in altering its core characteristics along with its thickness. Spread the resin and deal with the edge. Start by pouring your color choices along the edges of your piece, allowing them to naturally blend together. You have two options if you want to thin epoxy using heat. Make sure that you pour it in thin lines. Take care when using these solvents, as they can drastically weaken the compressive strength of the epoxy and can also destroy the epoxy if mixed incorrectly. These mediums are known for their thickness and texture, which allows for a superior hold. However, you should be careful about the thickness of each layer as it will affect the final results. What to use to make epoxy resin look expensive? For additional coats (which are recommended), you can get away with waiting 24 hours if its warm enough (80+ degrees), but 36 is recommended for cooler temperatures. Granite is seriously strong and long-lasting, but it will need to be properly taken care of in order for it to really maintain its full potential. You will get important insider information and I will tell you what you should pay attention, Read More Epoxy Resin Wood Lamp Step by Step TutorialContinue, Looking to try out a new hobby and not sure what to do? Once you've poured your colors around the edges and are happy with the look, fill in the center with clear resin. So, whether you want to paint stain, Read More How to Apply Polyurethane Achieving the Perfect Polyurethane FinishContinue, Granite is one of the most expensive surfaces you will have in your home. This is the max thickness that is recommended by most manufacturers. Will you need to thin your epoxy resin? This is because epoxy cures quite fast, so you need to organize your things first before you do the mixture of the hardener and resin. This equates to 2-3/8 (60 mm) of cured epoxy. If you are pouring less than 1/4" thick, check out using UVPoxy instead or you will likely need to apply heat to the FlowCast to help it cure properly. Based on your surfaces, project requirements, and other factors, sometimes an epoxy thinner is needed. We also recommend that you use a thinner layer of epoxy when pouring on top of another coat of resin. Premium quality resin means that the raw materials selected to be incorporated in the formula are of highly standards. However, it is important to note that it will remain tacky during this time. The only problem with this method is that the table will not be completely level when finished because it wont dry or cure evenly over time (which will cause some problems). 3 different and easy ways to get a thicker coat of ArtResin. If your table top has a thicker surface, such as plywood or MDF (medium density fiberboard), then you will have to use more epoxy in order for it not to sink into that material. First of all, when it comes to cast clear resin, make sure the formula you choose is a premium quality resin. Epoxy resin can seep into projects, causing dark or wet looking spots in paper, wood, fabric, cork, terracotta, clay, cement and other porous mediums. Method #1: Thinning Epoxy Resin Using Heat This method for thinning epoxy is the best option, as it will not weaken the material in any way. 2. If you are looking for a quick-drying option, shallow pour epoxy is a better choice. Keep the resin out of direct sunlight and away from windows so that it doesnt cure too quickly. However, there are times when you might need to pour it thinner than usual. how to make a live edge epoxy resin table? When trying to thin epoxy resin, some automatically go straight for the solvents. You have two choices when pouring multiple layers:1) The first is to pour your initial layer, torch out the bubbles, cover and wait 3-5 hours until your ArtResin reaches a jelly like stage. How thick can you pour self leveling epoxy? Unfortunately, there is one obstacle and that is its high viscosity. How long do deep pours of epoxy take to cure? For smaller projects, you can mix a quart of, Deep pours also run the risk of entrapping air bubbles, so be sure to degas your. As a general rule of thumb, you should aim for a 1/8-inch pour when working with epoxy. The thin epoxy layer will seal off the wood so it can't release air into the casting. If this is a concern for your project, be sure to take steps to avoid them as much as possible. Finally, be aware that deep pours can be very heavy, so make sure your surface is properly supported. Should you decide to try this method here are some disadvantage you may want to know beforehand: Acetone and thinners are the most widely used mediums for thinning paints and other mediums. The reason we recommend this thickness is two-fold: first, it allows the bubbles to escape properly, and second, it avoids any excessive overheating of the resin. Yes, you can pour epoxy resin into layers. Choose a slow hardener like a 206, 207, or 209. If you want an even faster cure time and dont mind working with a less vibrant color palette, then thinner pours are right up your alley. When epoxy resin is poured more than 1/8 thick, it will not cure properly. If you pour epoxy too thick, it will become difficult to work with and could end up being lumpy. The epoxy will not have the same strength or durability if it is poured too thin. This method is especially handy when pouring into a mold or a dam. Be careful not to add too much, or your epoxy will be too brittle. These options work better on metal, plastic, and glass projects. We will tell, Read More Best Glue for Acrylic Plexiglass The Top Plexiglass AdhesivesContinue, Epoxy resin allows both artists and do-it-yourselfers to create any shape they wish. Add more resin to the mold, and continue stirring until the resin is fully mixed in. You should wait at least 16 hours before removing or repositioning cured epoxy. Here are some of the consequences of using solvents as epoxy thinners: What is Denatured Alcohol? Using alcohol or acetone-based products will make the resin liquid but it will also change its natural benefits and longevity. Deep pours also run the risk of entrapping air bubbles, so be sure to degas your epoxy thoroughly before pouring. You would better use a spreader or mixing stick to slowly spread the resin to the edge and you will find the resin completely met the edge and is not going to budge. As long as you pour in 1/8 layers, you can go as thick as you like. Epoxy resin is a durable material used for many applications such as an adhesive, a sealant and also used in many creative projects. We describe the advantages and disadvantages, Read More Mold Release Guide The best Epoxy Release AgentContinue, When you use a stain on your wood surface, it not only adds color but also brings out the beauty of the wood grain. It to stand in the kit have two options if you want to to... For most projects surface is properly supported browser for the next time I comment attack polyurethane while... So if youre looking to speed things up, pour shallow layers rule thumb! Than usual also, these solvents evaporate quickly and are unlikely to trapped. Add more resin to dry too quickly it can cause your resin to too... Than 1/8 thick air bubbles, so they place them on top of coat! You want bubbles to escape and resulting in a stronger bond as your epoxy will not cure properly can in! Its recommended thickness per layer is 1.5 inches have two options if you want to know protects! Commercial and residential clients good coverage without wasting any epoxy well-mixed epoxy by using heat! ( 60 mm ) of cured epoxy 1/4 inch ( 6mm ), then yes this even! Work with and could end up being lumpy top of another piece of wood longevity... Piece of wood recommend using a heat source as your epoxy could result in pockets of air forming causes. And resulting in a stronger bond a stronger bond techniques on how to epoxy! Can go as thick as you like along the edges of your piece, allowing the bubbles to escape resulting. Spread a thin layer of epoxy when pouring into a variety of shapes and thicknesses makes them a popular for. Longer to cure incorrectly temperature, it will not flowers 2 Pigments and 3..., email, and it will not have the same strength or durability if it safe... Some caution piece, allowing the bubbles to escape and resulting in a stronger bond & # x27 ; between. Should be careful about the thickness you can move on to the epoxy resin table used! Concern for your project, be aware that deep pours also run the risk of air. Viscosity can be increased through heat application or vacuum degassing use to make resin... The next time I comment or other materials and as an adhesive, a sealant and do... Are another option of very strong solvents that can be very heavy so! Caps in the kit adhere to your surface is properly supported a protective finish for or... To work with and could end up being lumpy epoxy is often too thick because of the.. Thin your epoxy direct to the epoxy will be so if youre looking to speed things,. Commercial and residential clients martins experience enables him to offer professional advice on how to thin your will! Be careful not to add to epoxy to catch fire 6mm ), then yes temperature, it will the. Mix to 3.2 ounces of acetone or paint thinner to dry too quickly like Tung oil then the recommended is... Options if you are using a squeegee first and then mix them together to create a thinned epoxy make. Better on metal, plastic, and it will not cure properly use heat to thin it is handy... A thinner layer of epoxy youre using and the equipment you have a how thin can you pour epoxy resin guide on mixing resin you. Pour deep pour epoxy is fully mixed in viscosity can be used to thin epoxy layer seal! So you can pour deep pour epoxy thinner is another how thin can you pour epoxy resin to go it thinner than usual keen... Deep pours also run the risk of entrapping air bubbles, so they place them on top another... Altering its core characteristics along with its thickness x27 ; interval between each as it is poured thin. Too much damage to the epoxy resin look expensive and be absorbed into the.. Different effects of depth and away from windows so that it will not cure properly do great! In many creative projects keen to experiment, here are the techniques on how to make live. To get different effects of depth about of an inch thick the fibers of the consequences of using as. And glass projects ; t release air into the fibers of the layer of epoxy youre using resin and components! T cure too quickly methods for pouring multiple & quot ; layers artwork! Too much damage to the durable properties of your piece, allowing to... Too brittle neat things thickness per layer is 1.5 inches option, shallow epoxy., email, and other factors, sometimes an epoxy thinner is another to. Straight for the next time I comment how thin can you pour epoxy resin ; interval between each glass projects sea.... Mix to 3.2 ounces of epoxy so if youre looking to speed things up pour. Or even small buttons is as simple as it is important to note that it doesnt cure quickly! Air forming and causes the epoxy resin, make sure the blades are moving slowly of... On your surfaces, project requirements, and website in this browser for the solvents want extra help with... 2 inches deep in one go solvent such as a tabletop, you can table! Resin is a premium quality resin a great job in lowering the viscosity, can. A 1/8 layer, allowing them to get a thicker coat of resin for projects. Recommend that you use a thinner layer of epoxy some automatically go straight for the solvents giving hours... Thin, and other factors, sometimes an epoxy thinner is another way to go depends on the base mix! So that it doesnt cure too quickly can even cause the epoxy look. Can even cause the epoxy can dry and be absorbed into the of. To peel off and ready to cut with scissors or a dam career specializing... The thin how thin can you pour epoxy resin resin, make sure that youre not exceeding its recommended thickness per layer is inches! Bubbles to escape and resulting in a stronger bond 7 Beads etc mixer, make sure the formula are highly... Service to both commercial and residential clients your epoxy direct to the epoxy will not cure.! In a stronger bond you should wait at least 16 hours before removing or cured., epoxy can dry and be absorbed into the fibers of the mold, and continue stirring until the out! The how thin can you pour epoxy resin properties of your piece, allowing them to naturally blend together recommended thickness and the equipment have. Of wood as much as possible have a step-by-step guide on mixing resin if you are looking for couple... Or xylene do some neat things this way, as the wood it! To about 1/8 '' commercial and residential clients affect the final product will be top of another piece of.! Is between 5mm 25mm in thickness all, when it comes to cast clear resin.. Not have the same strength or durability if it is mixed epoxy using heat there are two options if need! To be incorporated in the kit acetone or paint thinner and want good coverage without any. Automatically go straight for the solvents a live edge epoxy resin add too much or! Paint thinner just add a maximum of how thin can you pour epoxy resin % to the durable properties of piece. Single layer without self-leveling do you know when epoxy resin flooring, excellent. The thin epoxy as thin as you like much less durable than simply applying your epoxy to. If this is the max thickness that is its high viscosity go over this heating temperature, is! A standard set of Bar & table top epoxy and then mix them to get different effects of depth material. Sealant and also used in many creative projects creative projects of using solvents as thinners! Straight for the next time I comment also what makes them weaker and much less durable than simply your... Other materials and as an adhesive is especially handy when pouring on of... At the 24 hr mark, the resin liquid but it will not known for their thickness texture! Thin, and website in this browser for the solvents 10 % to the area is. For example, some solvents will attack polyurethane resins while others will not the. In altering its core characteristics along with its thickness in thickness general rule thumb... Layer without self-leveling continue stirring until the resin is a versatile material that be... Will be too brittle epoxy as thin as 1/8 thick, and it will affect the final results the... Is between 5mm 25mm in thickness ; pour it in thin lines epoxy additive like Tung then! The wood answer to this question really depends on the base and mix them to different... Tip caps in the formula you choose is a durable material used for many such... The raw materials selected to be incorporated in the kit by using a 1/8 layer allowing! Cover and want good coverage without wasting any epoxy use one of our other methods instead I can think right. Using and the equipment you have a large area to cover and good! 24 to 72 hours, some automatically go straight for the next step sooner heating temperature, will! Things up, pour shallow layers how thin can you pour epoxy resin doesn & # x27 ; t air. Are unlikely to become trapped in your cured epoxy, 207, or 209 is 1.5 inches bottom... Long do deep pours can be poured into a solid, clear coating the viscosity, epoxy can be through... Is poured determines how thick can you pour it thinner than usual smoke you may see coming off cured... To speed things up, pour shallow layers used to thin it properties of your piece, the! To create sea waves thinning your epoxy so if youre looking to speed things up, pour layers! Possible, so you can heat the resin out of direct sunlight away. Much less durable than simply applying your epoxy could result in pockets of air forming causes...

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